I have stumbled on an interesting topic. For those of you who have time to read all this:
John Piper has an article here--It's titled "Tragically Widening the Grounds of Legitimate Divorce" He is commenting on an article by Instone-Brewer's Article in Christianity Today.
I found both of the arguments interesting but tended to agree with Piper on this one. Let me know what you think.
About Me
- lisatatj
- I have 3 boys and a great husband ;) We are very busy with small groups etc... I have a very BIG and Great God! I have several obsessions: Heaven, Scary movies, The truth, Friends and Accountability, The beach and being outside, CS Lewis, The Circle Trilogy
13 comments:
I must say I disagree with Piper on this topic. My argument is rather long and I don't feel like typing it. So we should bring it up somtime.
Yes, we should bring it up sometime...i need to brush up on my arguing skills than *smile* I read that a long time ago ;)
I think I'd tend to agree with Piper on this issue, as well (And Christ will never divorce his wife and take another. Amen!).
But I am extremely sensitive to this issue because my own parents have been divorced for about 4 years now, and I still struggle with it weekly, if not daily, especially around the holidays.
I appreciate that perspective Amanda. I think that it is important to have a sensitive heart to people who go through divorce and the family members that deal with it. I can only imagine how hard it has to be to deal with.
So as to hear both sides, I would encourage people to check out Instone-Brewer's own website, www.divorceremarriage.com.
He also specifically responds to Piper's blog post here.
cgl: I want to be in on that discussion when it happens. :-)
I would like to be in on this discussion too! I've not kept up with the debate between Piper and Instone-Brewer, but I have read some of Piper's arguments in the past - and tend to disagree with him.
Thanks for the extra info mwh...
so everyone...when are we having this discussion?
A few comments:
First, I agree with Piper in spirit (in part), namely, I think divorce is tragic, and that the church should do all it can to support marriages. (But then again, I suspect Instone-Brewer feels the same.)
Second, for those interested in a little more information, on the blog level there's Andreas Köstenberger and a more anecdotal post by Michael Patton (search around once you get to Patton's blog post, he has a couple others dealing with divorce).
Third, I think the "exception clause" is typically severely misunderstood. I shouldn't say "I" as if the correction originates with me, though. I think the logic of the grammar is misunderstood--and it doesn't really matter which language you want to look at it in, English or Greek. If you can get a hold of it,
Gordon J. Wenham
The Syntax of Matthew 19.9
Journal for the Study of the New Testament 1986 9: 17-23.
If you can't get it yourself, let me know and I'll loan you my copy or verbally explain his proposal to you. It doesn't actually solve the whole problem of divorce, but it makes the issues more coherent, and I think you'll find the logic readily accessible.
Fourth, and I'm sorry to disagree, but I found Piper's comments lamentable at points. His agrumentation is faulty at a number of places (even making room for him to weigh the evidence differently), his ad hominem attacks are not appreciated, and his advice to lay people to 'ignore scholarly research and trust what they can see for themselves' is very, very wrong and dangerous. Piper's position, though allowable, isn't even mainstream evangelical (cf. Köstenberger). Given his level of influence over both pastors and lay people, he should be more cautious with his words.
Fifth, to those who have ever suffered under (or seen others suffer under) emotional neglect, it is far from an "amorphous" thing. Given Piper's typical sensitivity to the emotional aspects of humanity, this response grieved me.
Regarding the discussion, how about New Year's Eve, cgl?
Also, before then, would everybody be willing to weigh in at least whether or not they find divorce (1) acceptable at times or (2) more or less never acceptable? That would provide some bearings as we head into the discussion. For myself, I think divorce is acceptable at times--but I'm open to instruction here--and would reiterate by point above that divorce is always tragic.
Just thoughts and proposals.
I'd like to be in on the discussion, too, but I can't promise I'll make it through in one piece. I'm tearing up now. Sigh.
In my experience with divorces (my parents', friends' parents, friends/co-workers), the reasons are this selfishness/laziness and unfaithfulness (which relates to the first). The first reason to me is no excuse at all; I take a hard line with this one actually: "Marriage is hard. Get off your butt and work at it!" The second would suck (sorry for that word) for anybody whose spouse did that and would be grounds for divorce. However, I want to leave wiggle room for reconciliation and forgiveness because people can change.
Well, I can go into a lot more (and I think I read something my Nancy DeMoss on this, too), but maybe I'll save it for our discussion, should it materialize.
:)
That sounds good. I have so much to say but would rather discuss it sitting on my couch and since I don't have a laptop anymore I can't do that using the blog. Anyway, ya'll are invited over to our house to play games etc on New Years Eve. We are going to get a more detailed count and if there seems to be an enormous amount of people interested then we will switch it to church. Otherwise everyone is invited..it will be fun!! Everyone = Smiths, Hedges, Ritters, Hulls and whomever else.
I got to say this is right up there with one of the things i am most passionate about, I would be willing to go to blows with a brother who advises another brother of mine to get a divorce.
What if they advise a sister? Would you go to blows then too? (I ask that partially in jest, partially in sobriety.)
Let me reiterate, divorce is always tragic.
Amanda's right: marriage takes work--we all know that, and you can only imagine how hard I must be to live with. And so I heartily agree that in practice most of the reasons for divorce are unjustified.
We'll have to be careful in this discussion to listen to exactly what people are saying and what they aren't saying. Saying divorce is allowable in some cases is not the same as saying divorce is allowable in all cases. Nor is saying divorce is allowable in some cases the same as saying one must, or even should, get a divorce in those cases.
Although we should not lower the standard of Scripture on this issue, neither should we artificially raise it. Scripture must be the ultimate arbiter.
Tim (and everyone else): My own position on this issue is tentative, and so if you can show that Scripture clearly teaches zero divorce, then I will submit. I invoke all of you as witnesses to keep me honest when it comes to teachability on this issue.
Do you mean sister advising a sister or brother advising a sister. That does matter. I am complementarianist in the sense that i won't give blows to a sister.
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